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Insider tips on tech startup marketing

The idea of explaining what your technology startup does should be straightforward, but many organisations are failing to accomplish this simple task.

Nona Digital CEO, Mike Scott, and host of the How to be Moderately Successful podcast speaks with Azadeh Williams, founder and managing partner of AZK Media, on how to clearly articulate your brand's purpose and message, and the importance of marketing from the outset of a startup's journey.

About the experts

Mike Scott: Today my guest is Azadeh Williams, from marketing and media business AZK Media. Azadeh brings a wealth of experience in the media and marketing space, with 15 years in technology having interviewed global executives from top companies, such as Amazon, Microsoft and IBM Watson. Azadeh is also in the top B&T women in media power list, and is on the judging panel for the IT journalism awards. Welcome Azadeh, it’s great to have you on the show.

Azadeh Williams: Thanks very much for having me on the show, Mike.

MS: Let's start off with your business to shape some context, tell me about your business, why you started it, and what it does for your clients in the tech space?

AW: We're a global media and marketing agency that are passionate about helping technology companies grow, specifically in the APAC region. We specialise in inbound lead generation, PR, customer advocacy, content marketing, social, and video. We're one of the rare media marketing firms which really understand the tech space, business intelligence, fintech, ad tech and AI. Our team has a really amazing cohort of award-winning technology journalists, seasoned marketers, and technology educators.

I started the business about three years ago because when I was a journalist, I could see many technology firms struggle to articulate what they to the press. I also saw some unscrupulous practices from PR and marketing agencies - and to be honest in the marketing space, there's still the wild west mentality when it comes to helping companies in the tech space grow.

I saw them overcharge tech vendors, under-deliver and not understand the space in the way to best serve the tech vendors. Who better to start an agency than a person who's been on the receiving end of thousands of tech company media pitches and insights from hundreds of CEOs from top tech vendors around the world? Starting the business was amazing, we had a great cohort of clients to start with.

A year later my husband, who was a technology educator for 20 years, partnered up with me. Together, we scaled our business into a new model, and we went from 10 campaigns a month to delivering over 100 campaigns a month for clients spanning APAC, EMEA, UK, US, Israel, Singapore, Australia and Canada. We're continuing on this growth trajectory, we absolutely love the space and are passionate about our suite of global enterprise and startup tech clients.

MS: I can relate very strongly to this, Nona is a services business, not a SaaS business. We've struggled, and continue to struggle to be completely frank, to move away from a generalist focus. We have a good business, it's profitable, it's growing, it's independent, it's all those things, but everything is difficult because we're not super focused and specialised and that's changing as we speak.

I love Donald A. Miller's work, Building a Story Brand, it's based on the hero's journey. Something happens quite often - if you go to our website, it's a beautiful unique website, and for the longest time we used to get this comment, "Wow, Mike, your website is awesome, but can you tell me what you guys do?" I didn't realise it's beautiful, but it's not effective, and it's not doing its job.

We see with our clients as well, very few of them understand and acknowledge they've also got to get a whole bunch of funding for marketing, and they’ve got to get a whole bunch of funding once the minimal viable product (MVP) or the minimal marketable product (MMP) is built because people will not come, you've got to take it to the world.

Talk to me about the value of marketing in the early phases of a startup journey. I have to fight with my clients, which is quite weird because we don't even provide marketing services, but we quite often have to say you've raised a million dollars for the tech build, how much have you raised for marketing? How much have you raised to take it to market? Quite often they say, "no nothing, we'll figure that out later." Give me the counter-argument, let's talk about the value of marketing in the early phases of the startup journey.

Critical mistakes startups make when it comes to marketing

AW: If you can't articulate what you do to your customers, then you're missing the mark. There's a lot of what we call ‘startup fails’ tech vendors should avoid when they're starting out, and these are the common mistakes:

Number one, zero brand equity. They have a shonky logo, a generic, dull mission statement and a website which screams "Fiverr". They're pretty invisible across social channels - and nobody understands what they really do or what problems they solve. The founders can't articulate what they do, or they're shy and they're not public-facing. They don't have the right skills or haven't invested in media training to articulate what they do to prospects and the press in a confident way.

Another mistake is providing no 'experience beyond the product' to attract prospects. There's no inbound content channel, or webinars streams or videos, or a well-articulated buyer's journey to get the customers through the door and then nurture them into becoming sales qualified leads.

This is a complex ecosystem, and unfortunately, a lot of startup founders either don't understand or undervalue marketing, and we see a lot of this. Even large-scale tech vendors, when they try to grow in new marketing regions after having some level of success in one region, they don't realise they need to create a sort of a microcosm marketing space in a new region. Instead, they hire an army of salespeople expecting magic to happen in the region, without a proper marketing strategy.

As a result, they're not articulating their messages to local customers and not creating local customer-centric stories or a customer-centric advocacy program in the region. You might have an amazing business in the US, but to grow in Australia, Australians want "Australia speak" they don't want "US speak". It's those things to consider and take seriously from the word go. Because the ones who do take it seriously and invest and understand the value are the ones that succeed here.

MS: What I want to dig into is a lot of startups, essentially having a hypothesis of what an MVP is. I'll use a startup example we've co-founded recently. We had a hypothesis, let's say we think 1000 users will download this app to use it for this thing. The only way we can prove that is to build something and see if they'll download it.

In this particular startup, we do not know what product-market fit will be, we do not even know who our customer base is going to be. To be honest, we don't even know what the monetisation model is yet. All we are clear about is there is a problem. We haven't even figured out whether it's worth solving yet. t is in the early stages, it's not even a business at all, it's a hypothesis you're trying to prove through building a piece of tech and then giving it to a subset of users and seeing if they respond. But many startups have not got a product-market fit. They have not yet gotten to the point where they know exactly who their customer is and they have not yet gotten to the point to even know exactly what their minimum marketable product will be.

In the early phases, what are your thoughts, because you need to go through a bunch of iterations, you need to be testing your product, you need to be testing your customers, you need to be getting feedback from your customers. How do you deal with clients who are still figuring it out? Or do you take clients once they've got it figured out and want to scale?

Unlock the power of market research in the early phases

AW: Our agency usually works once the product is pretty much about to go to market, we do a lot of go-to-market campaigns. We're at the end journey. However, what we can certainly advise people at that early start where they're still navigating and understanding who their customers are is feedback, feedback, feedback. Get some surveys, analysis, and aggregate as much data as you can from those who are using it and analyse the data and leverage it to keep improving the product, and hone in on who the target customer is. This is the essence of using the right data analytics tools to help develop a product.

MS: Absolutely, and I want to dig into this. You read any startup manual, you listen to any startup podcast and people will say: talk to your customers, get feedback, understand your customers. What does that look like? Does it mean when you pick up the phone and try to speak to a customer? What systems do I use to get feedback, what do I ask them? How do I ask them questions? What does getting customer feedback and talking to your customers look like in real terms?

AW: If we want to tap in and understand a particular industry problem or get feedback from our customer base or our network, we use Survey Monkey. It's not a very difficult thing to use, you can create a nice line of questions and in my mind is very intuitive and very cost-effective. You can incentivise your survey, and we find it's a very simple and scalable way of getting feedback for both ourselves as a business and our clients.

MS: How do you find the right list to get you a bigger reach?

AW: We either use our own network we have as an agency because a lot of us have interviewed pretty much every tech person. We have thousands in our networks. If we're doing surveys on behalf of our clients, we'll either leverage our own lists, or we will leverage their own lists. As an example, we had a healthcare client who wanted to know which marketing channels to use.

We created a survey to uncover what content their customers were digesting, and which channels they were leveraging. This helped clarify to them what their priorities were in terms of where to market their messages.

Another example is we had a data marketing company who wanted to create a marketing messaging framework for their go-to-market plan in the region. We created a short feedback form using our own network this time to uncover what the main tech challenges were in the region, and how best they could then frame their solution to get the best impact.

MS: I'm constantly thinking of new ideas for businesses, most of them are total rubbish, but every now and then there's a good one. I mentioned a startup we've co-founded in Sydney. One of the things we did to decide whether or not it's worth doing is we created a Google Form, and we sent a Google Form survey. We sent it out to our own networks and we got close to 1,000 responses.

This is a decent amount of data, and we got some interesting information which catalysed to us saying: okay let's move forward to the next step.

I love what you're saying there, my observation is feedback is under-utilised. What it leads to, I don't want to say it leads to poor decision making, because it could still be the right decision, but you reduce your chances of making the right decision if you're not getting feedback from the people using your product or your service. Your company obviously does this for companies but some companies aren't ready to invest in it and they need to do it. Do you have any tips on doing some of your own PR and your own marketing between the phase of "need to do it" and being able to afford to pay a company to do it for you properly or at scale?

Why marketing is a critical component of startup success

AW: We do think any company, large or small, needs to have some sort of internal marketing capability. You can't outsource every component of your marketing function and expect magic. There needs to be some internal deep understanding and buy-in of the marketing function at inception. Whatever budget you have, whether you want to use agencies, partner or hire someone in-house, whatever budget you have. Remember there's never one single person or one single agency that can do it all for you there's no such thing as an ultimate unicorn marketer, especially at the startup phase.

A digital marketing agency might be able to do your SEO and create a great website, they won't necessarily be able to run a complete go to market campaign or create a great inbound campaign for you.

Do your research and find the right mix of specialists, not generalists, who can help your marketing efforts and are also agile enough they can start small on small projects, then scale with you as you grow. It does make sense to take the time and do that research, and then make sure your budget, KPIs, and metrics are clearly defined and your marketer and your agency understand them. There's always a benchmark for measuring efficacy.

We also see some confusion when it comes to marketing metrics. We have startups come to us and say oh we want a bit of buzz around our business, can you give us PR? Can you get us into some trade magazines and tech trade magazines? We say absolutely we can do 50 pieces of media coverage in six months. However, what they actually want is lead generation, and PR won’t do this.

If your metrics are leads, then you're talking about an inbound lead generation strategy, you're not talking about an awareness campaign through PR. So get your metrics clearly defined, so you're not wasting people's time and money and other agencies’ time and money. You're aligning your KPIs and metrics with the activity that's needed for it to happen, not the activity you think you need.

We see a lot of startups at that early phase get hounded by agencies who talk the talk, they look super slick and sexy, they have a proven track record, they're running glamourous multimillion-dollar campaigns. They get sucked in and they buy the dream from these marketing agencies.

But those agencies have no idea what these guys do, they're not specialised in the tech space. Unfortunately, a lot of companies waste a lot of money with the wrong agency. We've seen this time and time again.

A great little low budget way to start is don't underestimate the power of your own LinkedIn personal page.

Make yourselves the stars.

You don't have to be the next Gary Vaynerchuk to achieve results, but hone in on understanding a LinkedIn executive thought leader strategy. This can be a very low cost, but an exceptional way to build trust within your business and yourselves as founders.

MS: I want to jump in on that because I've had quite a LinkedIn journey. I'm grateful I was introduced to LinkedIn quite early. I was introduced to it by a friend of mine, who I ended up hiring. Who said LinkedIn is an untapped goldmine. This was a few years ago. There was an opportunity to carve out a name on the platform. My observation is LinkedIn has moved from a place where you look for a job to a business thought leadership and content channel.

I agree 100% when you're a founder, or when you're a leader, LinkedIn is a must-have channel and you need to be carving out your thought leadership profile or your domain expertise profile. What I don't agree with is it's easy because it might cost from a money perspective, but it requires a pretty significant amount of time and consistency. You've got to be posting every day, there are too many people posting absolute nonsense, you have to be able to be authentic, you need to be able to be posting things, which are objectively valuable.

It's also very difficult to delegate if you're the thought leader of a SaaS product, or you are the thought leader of a tech business. In my experience, you can't outsource, you can't delegate it because it's like it's in your head as the thought leader or as the business person. My question here is, how do you navigate that when you've got a founder who's already working 18 hour days and now you're telling him or her they've got to be on LinkedIn?You've got to come up with content - your company might help with the content schedule or the calendar, but how do you navigate this because I don't think you can do it for them? Maybe I'm wrong, talk to me about that.

AW: Interestingly, we regularly work on LinkedIn personal pages on behalf of CEOs and executives, they give us their login and we manage and post on their behalf, particularly if it's, for example, a 10 week go to market campaign or something that's linked to a wider campaign. It's not sustainable or scalable to do that in the long term, but for short term campaigns, we have done this.

But what we provide is LinkedIn executive leadership training. We provide executives with a simple workshop to give them all the tools they need to cut downtime to post and manage their own profiles. You don't have to post every day, you only need to post three times a week, but those posts need to be of a higher value. We teach them the cadence of what should be posted and we help create the content where relevant and also make sure it's authentic of their voice.

Taking the guesswork out of elevating your leadership positioning

MS: I agree with you, it's very time-consuming, we take that time and guesswork out from it all. A lot of the time, I take for granted, how much I know in terms of doing this because I've got over 8000 followers. I was one of the early adopters of leveraging LinkedIn, as a business model in this realm. Most of our business comes from LinkedIn, LinkedIn marketing or LinkedIn thought leadership. There's a lot of skills I know I take for granted.

AW: Yeah, we do have a training schedule, sessions and workshops for our clients, and they found it valuable. They've gone from 5000 impressions to 35,000 impressions within a month, by adopting some of our strategies and tips, without burning the candle at both ends trying LinkedIn amongst everything else.

MS: That's where we are in our journey. We've had very good results on LinkedIn and continue to, but it's very time-consuming. We're at a point now where my LinkedIn page is quite successful and I get some good engagement from the right kinds of people. But I do everything myself, and that's not scalable and to be completely honest it's not a great use of my time. What are some other things that tech startups should stop doing, and start doing, in regards to marketing?

What are some things people should stop doing, which maybe will make people feel a little bit less stressed? What are some things people should start doing which might add to their workload, but give them some good results?

AW: To put it simply, startups need to understand marketing, and value marketing as a critical component of growing their business and building their brand equity. Because, without it, you're going to be invisible to your prospects and customers. It's an absolutely essential component to get a competitive advantage.

What they should stop doing is cutting corners in marketing, or thinking marketing is just some marketing automation platform you can plug in and play and it will do the magic for you, and you can step back and focus on the sales funnel. It doesn't work like that, there's a very complex ecosystem startups really need to understand. Those are the nitty-gritty things that startups should start and stop doing, and I can't overstate the importance of brand equity.

Startups should understand the concept of brand equity. How beautiful, valuable, rich and how much potential does your brand equity hold?

You can’t articulate what you're doing if your website doesn’t capture your lead information or if there are parts of your website which are broken and make you look cheap and clunky. How are people supposed to trust your new tech solution if you can't get your own website right?

MS: The brand equity thing is important. This podcast right here, what we're doing right now, is part of it and it requires effort, and it works. It reminds me of a guy I follow and respect, David C Baker. He's quite specific to the industry, he wrote a book called The Business of Expertise, and he has a podcast called Two Bobs, which is absolutely brilliant and he focuses mainly on sort of digital creative and tech businesses, which is quite rare.

He speaks about moving from, in the eyes of the customer, a vendor mindset to an expert mindset. When you're a vendor, you don't have to negotiate power, you do what you're told to do. It's generally a bad experience and you charge less money for it and it's less value. When you're an expert, there's more negotiating power, you’re starting off on a much more even footing, and you deliver more value.

The question then becomes how do we move from a vendor mindset to an expert mindset? The answer he offers is there are only two ways: write and deliver thought leadership through articles, blog posts, white papers; or get on YouTube, or to get on a podcast, and create an environment where you're giving value all the time.

This stuff requires effort, this is not set and forget, this does not deploy a bot that automatically adds LinkedIn people, and the leads roll in. Talk to me a little bit about creating content, how do you work with your clients to create content that is relevant, valuable objectively not filler content, to get better SEO results, how do you approach the content generation process whether it's audio, video, or written?

AW: Going from the vendor world to the expert world, there's one keyword in all of it, and it is education. If you want to position yourself as an expert, you need to be able to educate. In tech, and tech adoption, there's this chasm where you've got the innovator, you've got the expert in the startup and then you have the adopter, and there's a bit of a gap in between. The gap needs to be filled with expert education.

What we do is deep dive into who those adopters are, what their real pain points are, and what their challenges are. What are the industry pain points? Healthcare is a perfect example. Healthcare has traditionally been a very slow adopter of technology. Now, look at the doctor's pain points, look at the practice managers' pain points. What are the things they want? They are time-poor, they want to save time, they want to build efficiency, they want to grow their medical practices.

Deliver those messages and educate and give them the content information to help solve those pain points, whether it's a webinar, or whether it's a thought leadership piece. Different people learn in different ways. Create a mix of content, verbal, written, visual, audio to tap into all the different ways your customers understand and can learn about what you're doing. Once you get your education right, then you can position yourself as an expert. That's the base philosophy we work from.

MS: It reminds me of when one of my business partners wrote an article, a very technical article, on one particular process we used for a client. This article has been read over 40,000 times. He wrote one piece of content; it's highly technical and written for developers. This wasn't an article that's going to necessarily help directly with lead generation, but it absolutely is helping with brand equity and exposure, because 40,000 developers have read this article.

It took him 10 hours, maybe 20 hours in total, to write this article three years ago. However, it got 4,000 views just in the last two or three months, three years later. To your point, it's worth investing in these assets, it is the gift that keeps on giving.

If it's done right, it should be evergreen, it should keep on being relevant. This is why companies like yours exist. You can say “we've got you, you bring the goods, you bring the knowledge, you bring the subject matter expertise, and we'll turn it into scale, we'll turn it into dissemination."

When we were talking pre-interview, I got the sense you disagree passionately with certain things in the startup ecosystem. Talk to me about some of the things you passionately disagree with.

Stop the jargon and clearly explain what you do

AW: We've already touched a little bit on this in our conversation today, it's that inability to articulate what you do. It's this annoying and frustrating amateur speak in startup land where, as soon as you ask: "What do you do?" there's this sort of gibberish with generic cliches thrown in. Technology is very complex, especially when it's innovative, new and fresh. That's one thing to focus on because it annoys customers, annoys journalists, and it annoys investors.

In healthcare, as an example, we exist to connect patients and health professionals in meaningful ways, and optimise health outcomes by leveraging the power of machine learning. Instead, say we have a patient booking app that helps you save time and reduce patient no shows.

MS: An earlier podcast guest was told by his mentor: “you only have two jobs as a CEO of a tech startup, one is to bring people along with you, sell the vision, sell the dream. And the other is to make sure you're never the smartest person in the room."

To the first point, this brings people along with you. It's very difficult to do that unless you can explain what you do to a seven-year-old. If you can't explain it easily, you're not going to get people to buy-in, and you sure as hell are not going to get people to buy it. If you don't understand it well enough to make it simple, your clients are never going to understand it well enough either.

A tool that I use a lot for this is the Lean Canvas because the Lean Canvas asks you all the difficult questions about your business. What is different about you? What are the existing alternatives? What is unique about you? Why are you uniquely placed to deliver the service and others aren't? What are your channels? Who is your customer? What problem are you solving? If you can't answer these questions, there is no way you're going to be able to get your marketing language right. I'm not a marketing person, what I do know though is if you don't have your business fundamentals right, you can hire the best marketing company in the world and it's not going to work, because you don't know what you're selling, you don't know what you're building.

AW: Another thing is when the founders are too shy. They've got an amazing product, an amazing solution, and they need to get out there and talk about it and be confident in it. But don't want to get out of their comfort zone, they don't want to go out and talk about their products. When they're not passionate about what they do, how are they going to get other people passionate about what they do?

MS: That ability to evangelise your product and your culture and what you're doing in the world is important. The world has changed, you don't need to be the super flamboyant great public speaker, you can still be the tech founder that's a little bit nerdy, a little bit introverted, and still deliver a compelling message. It's not about being a super slick dresser and performance artist, it's about getting out there right and getting your message synced and delivered, all the time, consistently.

Key skills of a great founder and startup leader

This leads me to my next question which is something I ask of almost every guest which is: what do you believe the must-have attributes are of a tech founder? Skills can be learned, but attributes are not easy to develop and learn. What are the attributes you believe are critical for a tech founder to be successful?

AW: I've interviewed hundreds if not thousands of tech founders over the past 15-20 years. These are the things that have stood out for me through my networks and experience. Number one is a deep, solid understanding of their marketplace and the industry in which they're working. As an example, one of our clients is Silverbullet whose founder is Ian James, who was a CDO of Bacardi.

He saw firsthand in his market the digital and data challenges brands have. Before starting his company, he had ingrained knowledge. Now as founder, he understands the market, he understands the pain points, and he knows his solution works. This gives a deeper level of credibility.

Then there's resilience, it is an absolute must-have attribute. There was a great book I've finished reading called the Art of Resilience by Ross Edgeley, he swam all the way around the United Kingdom, and he was the first person to ever do so.

All of the character traits and philosophies he talks about in this book about resiliency, are absolutely critical to any business founder, entrepreneur, or a business owner.

Then you have a willingness to speak up, which I touched upon. Don't be camera-shy, get out there, get the skills you need to talk and be passionate, genuinely passionate, about what you do. Of course, you need to clearly articulate what you do and where your business is going.

Finally, which is the be-all and end-all, is leadership acumen and a collaborative approach. Leave your ego at the door, be collaborative. You can have the most exceptional business idea, but if you're rude, you'll only get so far. You need to understand what makes a powerful great leader in today's digital and data-driven age.

MS: Yeah, absolutely. I agree with everything, but I do want to dig into the first one. While I agree 100% you need a thorough understanding of your market, and your product, etc, but it's an outcome. What attribute do you believe leads to having a thorough understanding?

AW: It's having fairness, taking the time to do research, excellent deep-diving research skills into the market you're working in. That's the number one attribute. If you have first-hand experience of the market, that's a bonus.

MS: People invest in businesses, but businesses change and pivot and die and get reborn - it's really up to the people in the team. This is the constant. We forget sometimes software is still stuff being done by people for other people, businesses are people doing stuff with other people.

In this tech world, this investor world, and the digital world, we forget this and just because you're a tech advisor company, doesn't mean there are not people in your business. It’s run for, with and by people.

Avoiding burnout and maintaining productivity

Be cool, be a good person. Running a business is difficult, staying on the ball takes time. I'm guessing you never stop reading, never stop working. You mentioned you're married, like, you have a life. How do you do all of this, do you have any habits or routines to help you to perform optimally?

AW: Being a journalist before starting a business was pretty fast-paced. Understanding deadlines and being flexible and adaptable was something I took for granted. An important skill to have when you're running a business is to be an extra diligent person.

At the moment, I’ve found being an early riser works for me. I wake up at 5 am, and from five to nine, I don't do any emails, social media, I focus on big kahuna tasks. That's when I'm the most productive and I can get a ton of stuff done in that four-hour sweet spot.

I've also made sure I move my body every day. Before COVID, it was great I was going to Melbourne, travelling overseas, client meetings, and international meetings, I was always on the go. But with the Zoom world now you need to get your body and mind moving as an executive or as a business owner.

It's absolutely critical to keep healthy because if you stop if your body stops, your mind will stop, everything will stop. I try to minimise the use of too many time-sucking apps like Slack, WhatsApp, Asana, or Trello alerts. I try to minimise the overuse of it and on Fridays, we try to keep Zoom-free

We can alleviate Zoom fatigue, and Fridays is a good time to then maximise our creative, and design thinking and focus on those large projects which need energy and concentration. This boosts us all to work optimally.

MS: I'm in Australia now, I've been here for two years, but most of my team is dispersed all around. But I agree 100%, I train and move every day.

Talk about it to your team, if you're going for a walk in the morning or if you're in lockdown and you're doing yoga, show your team, not in a way of saying hey look I'm amazing at what I'm doing, but saying hey this is what I'm doing.

Quick question: we will move to the sort of more rapid-fire ones now, what scares you in business.

AW: Gosh, it's an interesting question because what scared me in business three years ago isn't what scares me today. What scared me three years ago was failing the clients, not being able to deliver what we wanted to deliver. I was scared the client would be unhappy and they would drop us and we would have a hole in our revenue, and those things terrified me.

I'm trying to be fearless, and trying to work towards pre-empting any issues I am aware of and solve those fears and anxieties before they are elevated.

MS: What content are you currently consuming?

AW: I'm always on LinkedIn, looking at all the latest news wires, and all the latest tech trade publications. I have my favourite LinkedIn influencers and I'm always learning from them.

MS: The next question is what is the last book you read cover to cover, but it sounds like you've already answered. It was the Art of Resilience, right?

AW: Yes and I can't stop raving about it.

MS: What is something you are doing in the next seven days to improve yourself or your craft.

AW: I am taking on mentorship, with some of the leading digital marketers I know to fill in some of my own skills gaps.

MS: I want to re-emphasise, Azadeh is on this podcast as an expert, which she is. She's taking a mental shift to get better and I want to rehash to the listeners because this is how you get better - you never get complacent. If you want to be a subject matter expert, it means you never stop learning. I love that and I find it humbling and inspiring. Of everything we've spoken about today which is a lot, what is the one thing you would want the listeners to walk away with?

AW: I would love listeners to walk away with a renewed passion for what they do and how they do it.

Listen to the full podcast here or wherever you listen to podcasts.


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